quick way to add ndbs?

[attaway]

I would like to add long range NDBs across the Pacific at the various Pan Am stations (guam, wake, midway,etc). I could crib from some old payware stuff I have ...

...but alas, I have no idea how to hack in ndbs and the various things I've downloaded have been quite intimidating and unhelpful.

Isn't there a .dat file somewhere with ndbs on it?

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Wrongway]

No real quick way to add them A. It's fairly simple XML, but it does take some time.
Here's the info from the SDK.

Ndb
This element is used to add an NDB to the facility database. To define a terminal NDB, the Ndb element must be used as a sub element of the appropriate Airport element. This element is allowed to contain other data and should not be terminated with ‘/>’.

<Ndb
lat="41.35184943"
lon="-89.15309158"
alt="199.33918762"
type="COMPASS_POINT"
frequency="890.0"
range="12345"
magvar="0.0"
region="K6"
ident="NDB"
name="Some NDB">
<!-- Optional VisualModel specification here -->
</Ndb>

Attribute Description Acceptable Values
lat Required. In degrees
lon Required. In degrees
alt Required. In Meters
type Required. COMPASS_POINT, H, HH, MH
frequency Required. In Khz
range Range In Meters. Default is computed to 27 Nmiles
magvar Required. Magnetic variation to TRUE north -360 to 360 in degrees. Default = 0.0. East magvar is negative, West magvar is positive.
region Required. Region Code 2 character region code
ident Required. String (5 characters max)
name Name. 48 chars max

The easiest way would be just to make them separate NDB BGL files in a scenery folder.

Rgds: Jeff

[bhk]

The simplest editor is AFCAD2.
If I can use it to add an NDB, anyone can.

Bruce

[attaway]

Thanks Jeff. That was just the hint I needed to get going.

I know Pan Am installed a network of very powerful ndbs across the Pacific especially for the Martin flying boats. The Martins could then fly ndb to ndb just like they were going up the coast of New England. I think I can deliver a set of ndbs duplicating that network in a few weeks.

If anybody has any info on the actual working range of those ndbs, please share.

Don't want to duplicate Jen's mistake and give myself too firm a deadline - I do have to work for a living. Lets say 'weeks not months'.

I'll dribble them out one at a time and also present them as a set when done.

If anybody else wants to start cranking out Pan Am seaplane bases, I'll chip in any ndbs I come up with to your project.

And thanks again Jeff.

[attaway]

..and I'll take a look at afcad2. Hadn't thought of that one. Thanks Bruce!

[bhk]

The greatest range of any NDB in FSim is 175 miles.

Midway and Wake radio stations had hourly radio scheds with similar PAA stations in Hawaii and California, so were (obviously!) of greater power than that required to send out a tone for a couple of hundred miles.

In addition to the PAA ground stations at Guam, Wake and Midway there were also USN radio facilities at those locations, in addition to USN radio, PAA comms and commercial broadcast radio in Manila, Honolulu and California.

However, it is going to be impossible to achieve the simulation of a radio coverage of the Pacific in FSim, due to that limitation mentioned above.

Regards,
Bruce

[jimslost]

Too bad.

[Wrongway]

I guess one way to get around it would be how it was done before all those AM radio signals were there, Course to NDB, Course from until signal loss then compass and ded reckoning until the next signal.
Another would be to add those missing radio signals into the sim as additional NDB's. (Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add a radio station playing period music to home in on? ) There might even be some way of finding out the original frequencies of the various stations.

Rgds: Jeff

[bhk]

wrongway said:

I guess one way to get around it would be how it was done before all those AM radio signals were there, Course to NDB, Course from until signal loss then compass and ded reckoning until the next signal.

That's about the only way, Jeff.

wrongway said:

Another would be to add those missing radio signals into the sim as additional NDB's.

You mean as ghost locations across the Pacific at 170-mile intervals?
That's a lot of NDB's and wouldn't it also take away from the realism somewhat? May as well just use the GPS.

wrongway said:

(Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add a radio station playing period music to home in on? ) There might even be some way of finding out the original frequencies of the various stations.

I did this in conjunction with Dave Bitzer back in January of this year.
We created a "broadcast radio" system that played various tunes (1-minute duration) and simulated AM radio stations. (am_radio_2.zip)

It was done for a selection of stations throughout Australia and New Zealand, with genuine 1930's/1940's stations and their frequencies being reproduced.

If it had proved to be popular we intended doing USA and Canada next but to date there have only been about 800 downloads so we didn't take it any further.

Note that the maximum range was still limited to 175 miles.

Bruce

[bhk]

I've been browsing www.flightsim.com and found a package created by Michael Vone (who is also into train-simming!) in 2000 that includes a "fake" HFADF gauge for use in FS2000.
It also has a host of very useful information regarding radio and celestial navigation in the 1930's.
You may find something here to assist you in creating those radio stations you are interested in.

The filename is mvchnclp.zip

Regards,
Bruce

[denniss]

Hello, All,
A while back, I simulated the 1919 Atlantic crossing of the Navy-Curtiss planes. There, they had a necklace of radio-equipped destroyers stationed across the route. As noted, though, they had to forward-course/back-course/dead-reckon their way from destroyer to destroyer.
As cited here, I used AFCAD2 to position the NDBs. And, as noted, there are range limitation that add to the fun.
I uploaded everything to Flightsim.com.
The Pacific is a good challenge, just as it must have been back in the Clipper days.
All in good fun.
Dennis

[attaway]

Hi Bruce:

Thanks for the tip on that old hf/df gauge. Looks like it might work in fs2004. I'll give it a try fri night. If it does work, should be very quick work to repackage it for Jen's Clipper.

Did some research on Pan Am's system. They couldn't afford a necklace of destroyers. What they did use was big shore based Adcock hf-df arrays with antenna at the corners of a squre 700 ft on a side. These picked up short wave transmissions from the clippers. The shore station would find several nulls, average them and then send back a bearing to the Clipper. Range was up to 1200 mi. The hf/df array used skywaves, which fade in and out, and so was not that reliable.

It also wasn't very accurate - no good for a fix, because there was only one bearing, not much good even for determining if you were off track, because the error at 1200 miles would be +- 60-200 miles. (assuming that big Adcock array could match a modern adf's 3-10 degrees of error).

There is lots of stuff out there on Pan Am's system because of its use in the search for Amelia Earhart. I'll pass on some links tonight when I get home.

[bhk]

attaway said:

Thanks for the tip on that old hf/df gauge. Looks like it might work in fs2004. I'll give it a try fri night. If it does work, should be very quick work to repackage it for Jen's Clipper.

That would be terrific if it can be adapted for FS9.
I noted that Michael V refers to some different panels for those three aircraft (S-42, M-130 and B-314) which appear to be used in conjunction with the "fake gauge".
If this system can give the illusion that the ADF is receiving a short-wave signal then at least it is more realistic than popping up the GPS.

attaway said:

.....What they did use was big shore based Adcock hf-df arrays with antenna at the corners of a squre 700 ft on a side.........I'll pass on some links tonight when I get home.

There are some pix of those arrays in the book "Wings to the Orient". When I saw them I thought that they would have to be as you described (I used to be into SWL and ham radio)......not much else in those days would have done the job but, as you say, accuracy was not great. Just one degree off course and a small island could be easily missed after a 1000-mile transit.

Regards,
Bruce

[bhk]

denniss said:

.....There, they had a necklace of radio-equipped destroyers stationed across the route. .....

Dennis,
Apparently there was a similar arrangement of such ships (radio pickets?) during and after WW2 in the north Pacific and also the Atlantic.

There were at least two between California and Hawaii that were used by commercial airliners (BCPA and PAA) on their routes in the late 1940's and well into the 1950's.

In fact, I think one of them assisted in the rescue of passengers and crew when a PAA Boeing Stratocruiser ditched.

Regards,
Bruce

[attaway]

Hi All:

The Adcock hf/df array was good as a homer. I found a very good report Fred Noonan wrote in late 35 about the first Clipper run. I'll send the link tonight. He said a good celestial fix should be given precedence over even a long series of hf/df bearings.

According to Mr. Noonan, Hf/df was most useful in homing in on the island. If the Clipper was way off course and going to pass, say 200 miles N. of Guam, that would become apparent in the df bearings from Guam in time to change course, even if each of those bearings were 10-30 degrees off.

I've thought about how to model the inaccuracy of hf/df in the flight sim. I think the best and simplest way is to remove all the markings from the hf/df's compass card, and make the card rather small.